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emmuzkaI can't say that this is good fan fic meta, but it just occurred to me that SGA fic is now suffering for the illnesses of a major fandom. Add a year or two and it might start to degenerate.
Bad fics are among us. they must be tolerated, because everyone of us is young or a first timer once. And if the author continues on her bad ways? Well, they can't be all good. The whole idea of fan fic writing is that anyone can write it, so no complains here.
But. Have you noticed that there are growing number of fics that make you scream of injustice? Fics that are against your mental image of how the societies work? If I have to read one more fic of "He raped him but it's perfectly okay because really they are in love!", I have to hurt somebody. Do these writers have a screwed up view of the world or what? Are they people who think that in the real world, date rape would be romantic?
Let me give you a few examples. In Little Fishes by Anna Isabelle, John has hard sex with Rodney while Rodney is heavily drugged with the whole purpose of making him submissive. John struggles with his conscience for about two seconds before letting loose and to the issue of borderline consensual/non-consensual sex is not faced in the rest of the story. Because they are in love, right?
The other example is a more famous one:Miracles and Little Miracles by Master Elayna. In these fics john acts like a jerk against Rodney, ordering him to stop hugging other people and overall putting him sumbolically between an owen and a fist. And what does Rodney do? Does he say, at least once, "You can't order me around, I'm a grown man"? No, he doesn't.
This is a pretty good fic, a nice read, and the whole time I'm thinking that the writer is heading for the story about abusive relationship and how Rodney gets out of it. But no! The writer lets them stay like that. When she was confronted about that in the comments of her original lj-post, she just said that she thought that John ordering Rodney around was *romantic*! what kind of books has the author been reading, and can I burn them?
Where does these kind of fic come from? Who teaches girls to think that this kind of thought pattern, even in a story, would be good?
Bad fics are among us. they must be tolerated, because everyone of us is young or a first timer once. And if the author continues on her bad ways? Well, they can't be all good. The whole idea of fan fic writing is that anyone can write it, so no complains here.
But. Have you noticed that there are growing number of fics that make you scream of injustice? Fics that are against your mental image of how the societies work? If I have to read one more fic of "He raped him but it's perfectly okay because really they are in love!", I have to hurt somebody. Do these writers have a screwed up view of the world or what? Are they people who think that in the real world, date rape would be romantic?
Let me give you a few examples. In Little Fishes by Anna Isabelle, John has hard sex with Rodney while Rodney is heavily drugged with the whole purpose of making him submissive. John struggles with his conscience for about two seconds before letting loose and to the issue of borderline consensual/non-consensual sex is not faced in the rest of the story. Because they are in love, right?
The other example is a more famous one:Miracles and Little Miracles by Master Elayna. In these fics john acts like a jerk against Rodney, ordering him to stop hugging other people and overall putting him sumbolically between an owen and a fist. And what does Rodney do? Does he say, at least once, "You can't order me around, I'm a grown man"? No, he doesn't.
This is a pretty good fic, a nice read, and the whole time I'm thinking that the writer is heading for the story about abusive relationship and how Rodney gets out of it. But no! The writer lets them stay like that. When she was confronted about that in the comments of her original lj-post, she just said that she thought that John ordering Rodney around was *romantic*! what kind of books has the author been reading, and can I burn them?
Where does these kind of fic come from? Who teaches girls to think that this kind of thought pattern, even in a story, would be good?
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no subject
Date: 2006-09-17 08:00 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-17 08:17 am (UTC)Oh, well, of cource there were Angelique books, where the main character got raped, like twice? But I still saw her as a heroine who had the power over people. but maybe it was just me that saw it like that?
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Date: 2006-09-17 09:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-17 09:51 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-17 10:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-17 10:17 am (UTC)I think that that kind of pulp promotes hate against women. (you know, objectifying, etc.)If the romance pulp is for the women, that is still promoting women hate, now only straight to the women.
for example, even the mildest romance novels often promote the idea that a woman should not be alone, that by being alone she is just a half and she should find a spouse to feel complete. What novel would ever suggest the same for men? Who would dare to promote the idea that men couldn't think and behave independently, that by themselves they would be incomplete?
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Date: 2006-09-17 07:18 pm (UTC)i actually think that modern romance novels sometimes come close to that, anyway. it's not all of them by any means, but in the more lightweight romantic comedy type ones you'll often run across a guy who is unreasonable and overly GUYish and competent but just can't manage himself right, and the heroine will have a certain attitude of affectionate bemused "oh MEN" and be capable of fixing him. of course, the heroine needs him to be complete too.
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Date: 2006-09-17 04:01 pm (UTC)I had this horrible dilemma last year at my grandma's because I'd read all the books I'd brought with me and all that was left was someone's old (late 80's) harlequins.
And since I *had* to read something...
OH, they were *horrible*.
Stalkers potrayed as 'just in love', kidnapping, stuff that reads pretty much rape...*Hell*.
Kinda like the best of fanfiction.net.
:D
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Date: 2006-09-17 07:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-18 06:08 am (UTC)Of course there are this growing number of "sheik Ali Hassan" -books, where heroines are strong and independent, and then fall in love and end up living in a near prison environment with those ah so romantic eastern guys. Uch! I really really don't read those anymore!
I really hope that those that get translated to Finnish are the better ones, since the translations are crap, and make the books even worse than they are. They are better in English and even in Swedish. I think the Finnish ones get translated first to Swedish and then to Finnish...
Feel free to ask me why I read those, if you want to. Emmuzka has asked it countles times. ;-)
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Date: 2006-09-18 09:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-18 02:04 pm (UTC)The golden years of harlequins seem to be gone. I remember there being a lot more of them available (everywhere!) over ten years ago...even some originally finnish ones.:D
Did we develope a taste for 'finer' things or has the recycling method worked against the industry, I wonder.
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Date: 2006-09-18 05:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-18 05:50 pm (UTC)Damn, I had my hopes up for a seedy underground trading business. :(
Just like reading slash in finnish...Yikes.:D
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Date: 2006-09-18 06:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-18 07:53 pm (UTC)Why do I have so clear idea about this? Seriously.:D
My subconscious is clearly perverted.
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Date: 2006-09-18 06:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-18 07:59 pm (UTC)I'm starting to feel I should make a study trip to the nearest super market to see what's what. :D
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Date: 2006-09-18 08:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-18 08:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-18 08:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-18 08:33 pm (UTC)(Don't ask me at what age I read my first bodice ripper...it's just criminal. It's a small wonder I didn't grew up more 'crooked'.:)
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Date: 2006-09-18 08:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-19 02:15 pm (UTC)We *so* need to poll this.:D
OH, isn't internet great? In the olden days (eighties:) you were supposed to deduct the meaning all by yourself or die from embarrasment and ask someone older.:)
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Date: 2006-09-17 08:40 am (UTC)I may just have gravitated to the vanilla ones, but at least now the vanilla ones are really common.
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Date: 2006-09-17 09:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-17 08:23 am (UTC)Okay, that was the charitable thought.
It's not just fic where I have encountered that kind of attitude, it's all over the media. Consider romantic comedies where guy who doesn't take no for an answer but stalks the girl through the movie gets her in the end. And bodice rippers, I suppose they are called that for a reason.
So these girls are taught that true love conquers all and excuses all sorts of questionable behaviour. It doesn't matter if the dashing hero rapes the girl at the beginning of the book, as long as he has all the time been secretly in love with her and by the end she realizes that too. For them love=possessiveness and if the guy isn't jealous and all-around jerk he doesn't really care.
And who knows, maybe that's also the example they get from their parents and other people around them :-(
Anyway, that's my totally non-professional armchair psychologist opinion. What I really don't get is how they think Rodney "the Ego" McKay would ever be a submissive little doormat. If there is a sub in that relationship, it's John "the repressed" Sheppard ;-)
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Date: 2006-09-17 08:44 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-17 09:25 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-17 09:35 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-17 09:18 am (UTC)but as the feeling of submission is a great plot device and an accelator for emotions, it's wrong to promote it as a favorable behavioral model for living. And justifying the submissive behaviour with love is a coward's plot device.
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Date: 2006-09-17 09:30 am (UTC)It is a mix between the "Rape-fantasy" where while the scene is abusive etc, the concent is given outside the context and twisted notions about romance and proper behavior in relationship. Like "He wants me so badly he is going to rape me" instead of "He's fucking psycho who gets off on abusing other people".
I wouldn't go as far as to say that what someone thinks is good in a story would be in ANYWAY good in real life. But I guess there are those people too :(.
It is kind of the traditional pattern for woman to be chased after, while she can stay innocent and coy and the man can be manly and decisive. But when woman are independent and strong, maybe the man "has to" be proportionally MORE manly and decisive and show that through violence and domination?
(And while it's slash fic, I'm using hetero one so it's easier to tell which is which :P Apply roles as needed ;)) And... I don't know, just first thoughts after my first cup of coffee ;).
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Date: 2006-09-17 10:08 am (UTC)Yes, I think the problem lays in the confused mixing of the rape fantasy and the twisted notions about relationships. there is nothing wrong with rape fantasies. They get the "absolution" for their outside context of being just fantasies. It's okay to fantasize sometimes about being a victim.
but, the things get messy when the "solution" for the problem of abuse is written in within the context of the story. This produces the twisted stories of rape, jealosy etc with the solution offer of "true love".
how do we know if these writers just want to emulate bad romance novels, or are they really inflicted by the novels so much that they truly believe them? What ever is the case, I don't think that it is a clever idea to promote this ideology further in fan fiction.
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Date: 2006-09-18 11:28 am (UTC)There os also question about the conflict. Two persons wanting sex and then sleeping together is not as intresting as one person wanting sex and one person not wanting or wanting something else like staying friends, pure romance etc. "Romantic" violence is one solution for this conflict.
But if this solution gets too strong postion as a stereotypia, then it might be dangerous. These basic types affect our opininons. We want to find villains, heroes, tragic love and happy endings in real life. We find it somehow pleasing when things happen "just like in the movies". The first fiction written by kids or in this case teenagers are perfect pictures about our architypes. If date rape is very often there and if it is accepted, I would be slightly worried. Those who don't understand the difference of fiction and reality might get some support for their thougths, that woman's "no" is "yes" and mini-skirt means that girl actually wants to have it. No matter that all normal pepole know that IRL and fiction are two different things.
On the other hand there are people, who like to be "forced" into sex. They are called cheaters. They just couldn't help it, they were too drunk and other participant was just too strong-willed. They just couldn't say no. I think this attitude as a sort of evil twin of the date rape. Sexual desire (and/or love) is considered as such a strong force that it might make people do things they don't actually want to. Or something. We are ready to somehow accept that woman/man might abandon her/his three kids and ten year of somehow happy marriage because she/he has just fell in love. So in case of date rape if you love and/or want somebody really, really bad it is okay to hurt her/him little bit because you can't help it. Or something...
But if we start to discuss, whether it is all right to write IRL-non-acceptable things as totally acceptable things in fiction, then we are suddendly back in the pedophilia-questions again. No, we have been there already, thank you :)
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Date: 2006-09-18 05:30 pm (UTC)About the conflict plot: It's actually a pretty good base for a plot. But again, the shmoopy love solution is not the answer. Besides, the dramatic angst would be only not more realistic, but a better, drama, too!
Stereotypes are always dangerous, especially if the readers will give them more pover by enchanging them and renewing them in their own texts. Reading stereotypical crap might be nice now and then, but transferring them to new texts must leave some kind of pattern into your brain, if not into your behavior. Like, people are reading aboutthe ultimate joy of being a stay-at-home, 24/7 super mom, and then they write stories where the pregnant character will instantly drop out of a highly appreciated job recuiring years of training, just to be the cosy home mom, and without showing even a slightest hint of missing the job.
I do know people who "accidentally" had sex with someone. What, do they fall accidentally on someones dick, or how do they manage that, anyway? Do they feel good when they were so drunk that they'll have to get the morning-after-pill, just in case? I don't like to read about this kind of behaviour as accepted, either.
And as for whether its all right to write unacceptable in Rl-things in fiction... In short, in my oppinion, it's perfectly ok to write, say, a rape fic, if the plot is logical; if the aftermath of the abuse is as bad and problematic as it would be in RL; the rapist is the villain, and the act of violence is *not sexy*. But if in the story the act of violence would be described as something sexy, or if it would be the "hero" that would do the raping, etc? that would be sic, and I wouldn't want to read that or know a person who would write that.
And as for whether or not it would be ok to *write at all* about socially condemned topics like rape? Can you spell s e n s o r s h i p ?
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Date: 2006-09-19 06:08 am (UTC)Of course for a plot, it's not so interesting if two characters meet, decide they want to have sex and do it ;). But the conflict of "one wants, the other doesn't" doesn't in no way NEED to be resolved through violence, and if there is questionable means used, those issues should be addressed too for me to enjoy the story properly.
Although, as idealistic artist type, I do think all forms and ideas are acceptable (in the way that they are allowed to be produced). Just because someone writes a story where rape is okay, doesn't mean the writer condones it (and IMO the motives of the writer don't have to be examined anyway). Or rather, just because someone writes in positive ways about things I don't approve, doesn't mean they shouldn't do it. I can imagine writing a story where ideals opposite of mine are presented in favorable light, not because I'd want anyone to think like that (of course not, I want them to think like me. Muahahaa), but because sometimes offering strong image gives people bigger reaction. As in "story about hero doing the raping and it being a-okay" vs "story about a guy who we thought is a hero but rapes and gets what is coming for him"... the first might make people think (and object) more about raping and how shite that guy is. (Not saying it is particularly good tactic, but shock value has it's uses too.)
Maybe the story enforces bad behavior on some people, but I am inclined to think it is more of our culture influencing the story (and the same culture influences the reader as well (Like eating of ice cream connected to drowing.)) as well as personal instabilities. People can go crazy over books, games, roleplay... yet they did go crazy long before those things.
I also think that art (using the term loosely here ;)) should be accountable as well. Someone produces a piece, others are entitled to rip it to pieces and trash it.
*cough* c e n s o r s h i p *wink*
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Date: 2006-09-19 07:18 am (UTC)AARGH! *Stabs herself*
As in
"story about hero doing the raping and it being a-okay" vs "story about a
guy who we thought is a hero but rapes and gets what is coming for
him"... the first might make people think (and object) more about raping
and how shite that guy is. (Not saying it is particularly good tactic,
but shock value has it's uses too.)
But what is the first story doesn't cause the reaction desired? What if the desired reaction wasn't wasn't meant to be negative in the first place? I have read many non-con fan fics where the only reason for the use of non-con was the desire to make a edgy, *sexy* story. Urgh. (Not like the non-con would have been a-okay in the stories, but the original idea of using non-con as a cheap drama device is kinda sleazy)
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Date: 2006-09-19 02:50 pm (UTC)Exactly. When does it ever? Usually these sort of crappy fics get shitload of (lj) replies in which moronic twits are yay about how awesome this literary piece of crap was. *grrr*
Um, my point was: How can your brain not go 'um, wait, this might not be all that sweet in real life'?
(It's pretty easy to tell apart the ones that are writing their non-con fantasy or whatever from those who just think that handsome/cute/sexy men just can't be rapists and 'but they're, like, soulmates!'.)
...guh, I just remembered the last two seasons of Buffy. I may need a bucket.
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Date: 2006-09-19 09:33 pm (UTC)Um, then .... reader can wail about the fifteen minutes of her life that she ain't never getting back? :< (Which, when I used to read fanfiction happened quite often. >.< ) Lot of writers use all kinds of cheap tricks and sleazy ways to attract readers (and when they succeed it is damn annoying).
I was trying to comment on what you said about "not wanting to know such authors or read something from them ever again because of the content" that personally I don't rule out any content solely for that. I do stop reading bad authors though ;) Usually after much ranting ^^. But I'm sure there is "good" stories that appear to be condoning rape. I can't think of any though ;). But for example Tepper writes with certain edge, and personally I cannot agree with many of the ideals she presents in her books. I have no idea if or how much she herself agrees (don't need to know either.) But yet I have thoroughly enjoyed her books and the ideas she present, as they give me lot to think about. Theoretically I can imagine myself reading such fic, and think it was good. Theoretically! I don't want to try ;).
Also Labyrinth that is one of my favorite movies, uses kind of similar set-up - the Goblin King falls in love with the girl and does all kinds of nasty tricks to get her and it is, kind of, romantic ;) Not something I'd want happen to me RL, of course though. (And in the end the he doesn't get the girl, aww.)
But I am digressing. Rape is very very wrong, and I do hope the people writing / enjoying those stories don't carry that to their RL attitudes.
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Date: 2006-09-17 04:13 pm (UTC)Very, very dumb.
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Date: 2006-09-20 09:00 am (UTC)Looking at the discussion here, I'd say that you need a fanficon, and fast!
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Date: 2006-09-20 02:39 pm (UTC)The first step is already taken! Just think how much there are "a girl dresses as a boy who falls on her/him"-stories! ;)