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Jun. 10th, 2009 11:03 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
emmuzka
Homina! (Click for a gif) He manages, in pretty much the same time, to adjust his hips (guh!) and be afraid of the snake (squee!) You can see the videos here. And how hilarious is that that CNN is covering this?
On the other things... I think that it is my destiny to be eventually banned from
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kradam_ai for not being in the same wagon with everyone else, but what the fuck? Fan fiction community is not a fucking writing class! It's not a spelling contest where everyone will get a golden star for participating! (On her behalf I can say that the author is actually fourteen.)
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Date: 2009-06-10 08:58 pm (UTC)If you are serious about giving authors concrit instead of just snarking at badfic, the old and well-tested method is to start the review with something positive. Like "That was really hot but did you notice that you kept changing the tenses" or "The song lyrics worked very well but I'm not sure I agree with the characterization of character X." If you just start blasting their fic to pieces and telling them what a shitty writer they are, is it any wonder they go into defensive mode.
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Date: 2009-06-10 09:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-06-11 04:50 am (UTC)"It doesn't have to be good, crap is welcomed just as well, so why bother, whatever, lol".
Except that she didn't say that. She said that it was her first fic and that she knows she doesn't have good grammar but that she did try her best. And she didn't even get that defensive until you had flamed her ass off. Other authors may have said that but she didn't.
She's fourteen. All of us sucked at fourteen. But unless it's a moderated community with quality control she has every right to post her fic there even if it's bad by objective standards.
You said that a fic community is not a writing class but it is, in a way. How else is she ever going to be any good if she doesn't get practice and genuine feedback. Fan fic community is special in the sense that it gives aspiring writers a built in audience, a resource that most original fic writer's don't have. Telling the author in effect that "You suck, don't come back until you are good" may be emotionally satisfying after a string of badfic but what does it serve in the long run? Next time if you don't want to give genuine concrit just close the tab and move on. Or post to fanficrants.
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Date: 2009-06-11 06:25 am (UTC)Too bad that my fan fiction program in Finncon isn't a panel, this would have created a great discussion.
I will provide a better and detailed response in the evening, now I gotta run.
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Date: 2009-06-11 09:05 am (UTC)Well, actually. It seems to me that Emmuzka was more replying on the general pet peeve on people not trying hard enough and this poor writer just happening on the line of fire. I don't know how others give concrit, but it was rather 'this ain't good, that ain't good, don't do that', which, given that it probably was the writer's first concrit might've been quite the slap on the face. Hell, I -still- want to bite anyone's head off who criticizes my work (for a second, then I loveloveLOVE getting real concrit since it's the only way to improve. If I ever get my story finished, I'd love Emmuzka's feedback on it, since I know you don't hold your guns and shoot to kill ^^.)
The fic then. It really was not that good. It was like a super campy and tacky musical number from comedy tv-series. (I was like...wtf, is this supposed to be crackfic, or is it serious?) BUT, it was the writer's first fic, and she's 14. Dear god I am lucky none of the stuff I wrote at 14 is on the internet. So I guess if there was a good line or two, she can become amazing writer later on.
I get the irritation on people not trying that hard and posting unpolished works. But, I think it might also be that these people really don't GET IT. They have zero idea about writing and think that just vomiting any words to Word and -possibly- running spell check on it is quite enough. (It doesn't make it any less irritating though.) Yelling at them might not make them change their minds, but at least it gives some peace of mind, I hope ^^
Is there a point... maybe that there's a huge number of young aspiring fanfic writers who would need guidance and probably some slapping to get the point across. That yes, you DO have to spend the extra day or week to polish it. Yes, you DO need to make sure your grammar is correct, your spelling is correct and your tenses are correct. Yes, you DO have to make your fic readable and understandable to strangers, that's why you're posting it to fic community!
(I could say the same about young roleplayers, but dammnit I don't have time to educate them. I just ignore all werewolfvampireslut princesses running around yelling 'y u dun talk to me? i didn do anythnk worng'. *hiss* *boo* )
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Date: 2009-06-11 02:16 pm (UTC)So you mean that there is no unwritten rule that goes "try not to post crap"? You have to note that we are both old farts. Nowadays, some fic people really do take your claim of "every right" *literally*. That means that people post short stories less than a hundred words, or just inquiries if "they should write a sequel. She just spammed a friendslist of *2000* people to ask if she should write a sequel! Way to fish compliments, dude! The best so far; a person who posted that he had a fic *idea* that she wanted written, *by somebody else*, and she practically demanded that it would get written. Sheesh! If you say that every person has every right, that promise will get abused.
fic communities are for people to post fic, hopefully good and well thought fic. Crap also if the author had done her best. but it is not a spelling contest where everybody receives a golden star for participating. The problem is that young people see crap, and see how the authors get praised for their crap, and they thought that this is it what is expected of them. This is as good as it gets. And if they receive praise for being able to write complete sentences, do you think that there will be actual writer development? Why bother?
On the previous issue, I suggest that you'll read the famous essay "Slash fiction is like a banquet" (also known as the hummus essay): http://www.trickster.org/fannishbutterfly/hummus.html
You said that a fic community is not a writing class but it is, in a way. How else is she ever going to be any good if she doesn't get practice and genuine feedback. Fan fic community is special in the sense that it gives aspiring writers a built in audience, a resource that most original fic writer's don't have.
Okay, first of all, fic community is NOT a writing class. It's just not. It helps develop ideas and spread new concepts, but it's not a platform for publishing poor work. Of course you'll have to write to develop to a better writer, but why oh why must people nowadays post their crap for the first piece of crap? Why don't they think anymore that it would be better not maybe not post publicly your first piece, or post it in your own journal to your friends? Posting crap in a community is abusing the community. you are fishing feedback from people who would rather read something better.
Secondly, fan fiction is not a practice platform for young aspiring writers. This is a common mistake, but usually between people who actually don't consume fan fiction, unlike you. Fan fiction fills an entire different slot than writer practicing for her future original fiction. Fan fiction is not supposed to be easier to write than original fiction. If it is, you are doing it wrong.
Telling the author in effect that "You suck, don't come back until you are good" may be emotionally satisfying after a string of badfic but what does it serve in the long run?
Well, what good it does if the writer gets only feedback that says "WRITE MORE!!" and "I liked it!"? Because that seems to be the current standard. Usually I don't give feedback that says that "it wasn't very good", because that is too general, but in this case, I just couldn't help myself. Usually I say something like "Are you sure these strong male characters would really cry in the first paragraph?" "The dialogue was not realistic" "Adam was portrayed as out of character because of this and this"....
Next time if you don't want to give genuine concrit just close the tab and move on. Or post to fanficrants.
But how to give genuine concrit to people who don't know how lj-cut works, not even after several people explaining it to them? to people who *say* that the story sucks? Who say that they don't beta because they don't care?
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Date: 2009-06-11 03:24 pm (UTC)...just saying.
I agree with you though. Posting 'crap' to a 'finished work' community sucks.
There should be communities for substandard work. You know, story snippets, drafts, that kind of thing. Sometimes I post doodles instead of pictures I've done my best for since I want to show it to (friends) people, and don't have time to finish it up. I wouldn't post that to a community meant for -finished- works, but these people maybe don't know other places to show their creativity.
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Date: 2009-06-11 07:46 pm (UTC)I never said this. I said that to become a good writer, a person needs practice and guidance. Whether they write fan fic, original, non-fiction, poetry, drama or what have you, everybody start crappy and hopefully become better over time. Most original fiction writers never get published and nobody sees their texts. Fanficcers have a ready made audience willing to at least give them a shot. I didn't make any kind of value statement between different kinds of writing.
But how to give genuine concrit to people who don't know how lj-cut works, not even after several people explaining it to them? to people who *say* that the story sucks? Who say that they don't beta because they don't care?
But the person in question didn't do these things. She just wrote badly. This is the example you gave us, not one of the obnoxious ones. She did her best or at least claims so.
And yes, of course people should be called on their bullshit but what does being a dick accomplish? Do you think the author listened to a word you said? Do you think she took anything of it to the heart? Or did she just dismiss you and everything you said as a flame? I know it's like fighting windmills. A Torchwood comm just had to ban a poster for the post a twenty word chapter five times a day shtick and I support their decision.
Giving genuine concrit doesn't always reach the intended target but it may reach someone else, some newbie lurker just starting her writing career may very well find your tips useful even if the author dismisses them. Or even a more experienced writer who wishes to improve. This is what I mean when I say fanfic community is a writing class of sorts. (And I don't mean specific comms, I mean all the people all over the fandoms, bouncing ideas and feedback off each other.) You won't reach all the people but you never do. Some people don't care about improving and they will never be good and some people are simply jerks.
But some fourteen year old who can't spell and writes about weeping men now may write deep and nuanced epics ten years from now just because she had a place where improve her skills and somebody gave her a few useful nudges along the way.
Oh, and one more thing.
or post it in your own journal
Where are they are just starting, where exactly are they going to find readers if they don't post to a comm first.
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Date: 2009-06-12 07:11 pm (UTC)Where are they are just starting, where exactly are they going to find readers if they don't post to a comm first.
Eh, I don't know about you, but in the usual way meaning that you first write some content to be plausible. Then you go and friend people who you see interesting or write good fic. Probably some of them will friend you back. Voila! Did you think that the "normal" way would be that people would make the initiative? Not so.
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Date: 2009-06-12 09:00 pm (UTC)In my corner of fandom comms exist so that people can post their fic in them for people to read. Most fic is bad but so what. Who gets to say who is good enough writer and who is not? Everybody is free to post as long as they follow the rules and if people don't like it are free to stop reading.
Apparently things are different in your corner of fandom.
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Date: 2009-06-13 03:55 am (UTC)Yes, we agree on that. The difference being that I don't see it okay for comms to be waste dumps, when you apparently see it as given.
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Date: 2009-06-13 05:54 am (UTC)It sucks to wade through the crap but if we get the attitude that posting badfic to a comm is a grave personal insult and start setting some arbitary rules about who is fit to post and who is not, we get to the same problems we always get with censorship, namely where is the line drawn and who gets to decide. Is it enough if one commenter objects or should it be majority? Should authors run a test run on their journal first? What if their flist consists of other fourteen year olds who think the fic is "OMG so good"? Should we then also make restricions on who gets to comment? Minimum age to posters? Old people can write badly too, and young people can write well. Moderators decide? I'm actually more than fine with that because I love comms with quality control but then they should be upfront about it and not present their comm as free for all.
And when is a fic good enough? Really bad ones are of course out but how about a just a slightly bad ones? Is mediocre enough or should we strive for real quality? What if author's style is clunky and spelling all over the place but the plot is interesting and characterization spot on? How about if she writes like Shakespeare but it's a Mary Sue songfic? Whose standards do we use? I bet you would reject fics I love and vice versa.
Of course you could argue that there shouldn't be open communities at all but that's the nature of fandom. People do their thing and the kids won't get off your lawn no matter how much you yell at them.
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Date: 2009-06-13 10:07 am (UTC)I want to believe that respect towards the community can make people self aware regarding the quality of their fic. Remember when fic was posted in groups and not blogs? Posting was a serious thing. People could lurk in there for a long time just to get the feeling of what were the rules and desires, and if you posted crap, you got a backslash. And that was not moderated.
But now it seems (especially in AI fandom) that people have no shame. Maybe they should read for a while, to see what is considered good or normal. Maybe they should wait for the next morning before publishing something that they wrote in twenty minutes in the middle of the night. But now they are not always self aware, or have that much respect for the cummunity, since it's "only" a free-for-all dump, right?
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Date: 2009-06-13 12:23 pm (UTC)Actually I don't remember the groups. I started reading fic in 1999 (The Phantom Menace!) and for several years I only read sporadically and from websites. I only started to read regularly when I fell for Harry Potter and LJ was well underway by then. But anyway.
LJ does make it very easy to post your fic and fandom is so large now that pretty much anyone can find some niche for themselves. And easiness promotes laziness, yes. Also I have a feeling that people are getting into fandom younger and younger and the kids these days (did I really just say that!) are grown into the internet culture in a way that was unimaginable in our youth. I think the teenage fans are so grown into fanfic culture that they don't view it the same way we do. They take it for granted because they never had to carve their place in it often in hostile environment the same way the generations before them. We had to convince others that fanfic has value, their attitude is much more casual.
And I don't think it's only bad a thing. The new generations keep the fandom alive and while they do thing differently, which is always irritating, change is always inevitable. Just compare times now to the times of the fanzines. We have come a long way. Fan fic is coming closer to mainstream, it's becomeng better known and more accepted, even by TPTB. I find that a good thing and the younger generation play a part in it.
Okay, I went a bit off tangent there. Anyway I feel your pain but I don't think there is turning back the tide and there isn't much we can do, other than try to find our inner zen and lead by example. One day they too will grow up and in turn curse the fanbrats of the future.