Fandom should never be afraid of offending the soccer mom

[emmuzka]

first, go read this: responsible fanfic by heatherly. Take your time.

ETA: To be fair to all the people partaking the conversation I continued the discussions as they were continued in the original comments. So the text will be looong.



I thought it was bullshit. A child wellfare professional has no more power to write about the issue of abuse in fanfiction than rest of us mortals. She used the oldest argument that there are: You should not write certain fiction because I think it's icky, plus a bonus of People writing crappy abuse fics must have troubles understanding the harsh reality. And most of the comments were like, "Oh, that was so adult and thought provoking and good!" when actually it was written besides the subject and by someone who might know a lot about child protection but only a little about what it's gotta do with fanfiction (if anything).

Here is my comment to her:

Thank you for the definitions of the terms, that was very interesting. However, I think that you,-possibly trying to keep this intellectual and not make it a wank-, disclamered your text so heavily that it kinda lost its point.

By describing the reality of incest/abuse/rape, you probably intended to make the fic writers see how much their "OMG incest is hot!" fics clashed with the reality, and in the end mentioned the mainstream thing.

At the same time you managed to condemn all or most of the abuse writers as bad, irresponsible, carelessly throwing their fics under the eyes of the mainstream readers-badficwriters. "Be responsible". what if part of us already are?

Also, you can't talk about abuse in fanfiction when totally disregarding the idea of a fantasy. You can't evade that argument just by saying that you don't want to argue about it. The reality is horrible, yes, but 99.9% of, let's say, rape-fic readers actually fantasize about raping someone, not mentioning them actually being rapists. Think outside the box: On a larger scale, fantasizing men raping other men women can revenge, in a symbolical querilla style, the oppression of the surrounding heteropatriarchal matrix what we live and breathe.

Personally, I like to read about non-con (between adults) that is portrayed as realistically as possible, with all the aftermatch, but that's only me. Someone else likes to read their rape harlequin style, other one reads theirs as porn. Who is anyone to say that these people should change their style? As long as they'll put disclamers in their stories, it's all fine by me.

(and, if you at this point would want to remind me that you wouldn't want to push anyone to censor change their writing, what was your point then?)

You are a child welfare professional. I'm a media analyst and communications professional. I suggest that you read some media studies books, especially Ien Ang's classic "Watching Dallas", which explains the reasons for womens' victim fantasies in fiction.


ETA: she commented back: Thank you very much for our thoughts and comments. :) One of the reasons I tried to use so many disclaimers was because I truly had no wish to either offend or condemn anyone, and yet obviously managed to do so regardless!

I used definitions for two reasons: 1: To try to share information--it's a compulsive trait in some social workers! :); and 2: To make sure when I mentioned terms like child abuse, incest, and pedophilia, it was clear what I was referring to, because, again, as the internet is international, these words have definitions that may vary.

(and, if you at this point would want to remind me that you wouldn't want to push anyone to censor change their writing, what was your point then?)

Well, my point was to express my viewpoint and my opinions about a topic I feel is important. My point was to offer information and to state that I believe it is important to write thoughtfully.

You are welcome to disagree. I think that in reading your comments here and in response to others, we have different viewpoints. Again--good. :) The world would be rather boring otherwise.

Thank you again for your comments! :)


Me:Thank you for answering :)

What you suggest isn't even very controversial. There have been suggestions like this before. But. personally I think that fandom-vise, you wrote the essay with "false credentials". What I mean is, in fandom, basically only your expertise and offering to the fandom counts. Your expertise lays on somewhere else than i fandom (in child welfare) and when you back your statements about fandom with gredentials made in somewhere else, people will get annoyed. Some of them can also see and applaud only your expertise in other areas and thus fail to see and question your knowledge about fandom.

For example, as it has been discussed elsewhere in the comments, you didn't seem to know about the common disclaming and warning practices that are already in use. So, not that much an expert in fandom. You put so much disclamers in your essay that maybe a one "I'm not an expert in fandom" could have fitted in there, too? Still, most of the commentators overlooked this thing, maybe because they liked so much your vague suggestion of being decent.

Also, next time, you might consider that not only it matters what you *say*, it also matter what you *imply*. This is very simple rhetoric: If you ask people be responsible, then you imply that we/some of us are irresponsible. If you suggest that we think about these things, you imply that we don't think. If you inform us about the harsh reality, you will imply that we didn't know about it, and even that the fic writers would think their stories as true to te reality. It doesn't matter if you say now after that you didn't mean to imply these things. Because you failed to write out your actual problem in the thesis (jumping right out to the solution suggestions), you left your text open to all kinds of readings. So no wonder you got people annoyed.

But! you managed to launch pretty good discussion about the subject, without ending in Fandom Wank (even when I was actually de-friended by shusu because I dared to disagree with her about the greatness of this essay), and that's always a good thing.

As your suggestions? Personally, I'm always thoughtful. I don't like fics using plot devices like rape or incest carelesly. But being responsible for the possible mainstream encounters? Never.

To another commenter, I was not so nice: ETA: the conversation contied and it turned out pretty great.

dr_jekyl:Thanking you for writing this out and in such a thoughtful manner. It's something I've seen others try to express (in locked posts) and, indeed, have tried to express myself over the past few days. This is particularly true in regards to the responsibility writers have towards their subject matter, and the way the greater public will react to what is written.

It worries me that fandom seems to have gotten so wrapped up in itself that it forgets how some topics look to the rest of the world. What we treat as normal simply isn't seen that way by the soccer moms of America, nor will it be in the forseable future. The apparent unwillingness to take responsibility for what has been written also concerns me; in the wake of Strikethrough, fandom is faultless and LJ/6A must, not only take every scrap of blame, but make all the compromises and concessions. Question this arrangement, ask if we shouldn't be making some compromises or at least examining the whats and whys of what we and others are writing, and you're attempting to censor other writers.

I wonder sometimes if people are so caught up in being allowed to do something that they forget to consider how they should do it, let alone if they should in the first place.


emmuzka: fandom seems to have gotten so wrapped up in itself that it forgets how some topics look to the rest of the world. What we treat as normal simply isn't seen that way by the soccer moms of America, nor will it be in the forseable future.

The apparent unwillingness to take responsibility for what has been written also concerns me;

I disagree. Hear me out. I my oppinion, *I don't have to* think of the soccer moms. I am not responsible of the anguish that I might cause to the soccermom. I am not responsible if the mainstream is too stupid to act if they slide out way by accident. I *have* to think about little kids, but let's be honest, I rather throw that responsibility to the kids soccermoms to watch out what their darlins are reading.

Really. If fandom would be really concerned abouthow some topics look to the rest of the world, would there even *be* fandom? The whole point of fandom is to go off mainstream, to write what we want, without supervision and censorship from the Powers that Be.

I sign this with all my heart: Fandom should never be afraid of offending the soccermom. Never.


dr_jekyl continues: If fandom would be really concerned abouthow some topics look to the rest of the world, would there even *be* fandom?

I would argue that if we continue to be unconcerned with how we look to the outside world, there will eventually not be fandom, and if there is it won't be as we know it. The price of liberty, after all, is eternal vigilance. Lack of concern about how we are viewed will end up being lack of awareness. If we are both unconcerned and unaware, we will be caught with our pants down – again – and won't be able to react until it's too late. Forget Strikethrough and corporations being unwilling to host our sites and archives, think more along the lines of it actually being made it illegal to read or write some of the kinds of material we're discussing, as it has here under the oppressive regime known as the Australian Government.

Fandom should never be afraid of offending the soccermom. Never.

I'm not saying that we should, or, at least, I didn't intend to say that. But is awareness and discussion of their viewpoint wrong? If there is no dialogue on the issue, if people decry all criticism and questioning as violations of their right to freedom of speech, then the only defence we will end up having for writing controversial material is that it falls under freedom of speech. While, yes, that should be enough of a defence, given the subject matter and the current "won't someone think of the children!" political and social climate, I doubt that it would be. We can't just stick our fingers in our ears and go "nah nah nah nah, free speech, can't hear you!" and pretend that will make all the criticism, concern and questioning invalid.

Nor, it must be said, can we continue to throw tantrums when people react badly to our work, as it seems we have done in the wake of the Strikethrough debacle. Yes, LJ/6A did wrong – I'm not denying that. But we must be willing to turn the microscope in which we examined their flaws and motives back upon ourselves. That's what I mean by being responsible as fans and as writers.

The whole point of fandom is to go off mainstream, to write what we want, without supervision and censorship from the Powers that Be.

I don't entirely agree with this. To me, the point of fandom is to celebrate and explore the source material with people who have the same love of it that I do. How we choose to do the celebrating and the relationship we elect to have with TPTB is secondary. Fan fiction is subversive by its very nature, yes, but I don't think that it, nor fandom, should be subversive for subversiveness' sake.

I *have* to think about little kids, but let's be honest, I rather throw that responsibility to the kids soccermoms to watch out what their darlins are reading.

That's a stance I can agree with wholeheartedly. Alas, parental responsibility, like so many other forms of responsibility, is nearing death.


Me: agree with you with your first point. At some point, fan fiction *will* be banned in a form as we know it. All fanfiction breaks copyright, and some fanfiction breaks the rules of what is decent to broadcast to "all audience", so there will be a change.

Just, out answers to this problem are different. I believe that a chance in the subject matter, i.e. writing decently, won't matter in the end because the more conserning issue is the copyright issue. Fan fiction started as an underground fiction, spreading hand to and and via round robin mailing lists. I believe that if it comes to that, the fic will go back to that. People will send the fics as personal emails. It would be subdued, yes, and it would change the nature of fandom alot. Still, I believe that it a better (and maybe only) option compared to lets say, not being able to write other than G and PG fics.

I don't entirely agree with this. To me, the point of fandom is to celebrate and explore the source material with people who have the same love of it that I do.

This might be a difference in nuances, only? I' m a media analyst by professional so I talk like that. You see celebrating and exploring, I see people who exercise their power to make their own stuff and go further with the material that was originally tamed and controlled by the money and society. As the slogan goes, "Fans do it better". They are no longer eating up just the professional, pfoicial fan material, but they are making their own, which I think is absolutely great.


dr_jekyl: At some point, fan fiction *will* be banned in a form as we know it. All fanfiction breaks copyright, and some fanfiction breaks the rules of what is decent to broadcast to "all audience", so there will be a change.


I think, in the end, that we'll get strung up on the decency charge, because it makes better talking points than copyright law ever will. That outrage will be used to instigate copyright crackdowns until all we're left with FanLib 2.0 and no safe place to mock it from.

Fan fiction started as an underground fiction, spreading hand to and and via round robin mailing lists. I believe that if it comes to that, the fic will go back to that.

Very true. I was having a similar conversation with friends the other night (about music copyright infringement and DRM rather than fic, but the same principle applies) and determined that attempts to control or stop infringement will fail because people have these things called feet, paper and hard drives. They also have the motivation.

This might be a difference in nuances, only?

It seems to have been. I think my sticking point was where you said the 'go off mainstream'. As fans go, I'm incredibly mainstream: when I actually write, I write gen and sometimes light het, and it's only partially because I find writing sex scenes to be utterly hilarious. I've seen the attitude expressed that people like me aren't aren't really fannish because the primary point of fandom is its subversive aspect.

ETA: Ooh!

My comment to shusu on her journal. She originally linked me to the article:

Read the whole thing. Sorry, but I thought that it was bullshit. You can read my comment in there to find out why. Also, the whole article was constructed very poorly, withthe idea of being responsible introduced somewhere between the lines near the end. And the subject of the mainstream was left unclear.


shusu:Then you missed the point, and I will have to say goodbye to you on my flist. If you have a problem with giving "soccer moms" the chance to click away, no questions asked, then that indicates to me that you really don't care about your audience, or the fact that your words are being communicated to them en masse, on a medium that allows for LJ-cuts and a community that regularly discusses content warnings.

But that is on your own time, of course. It is not, however, going to be on my space. By the way, thanks for offending all the soccer moms reading my journal.


Me: Then you missed the point

No, I didn't. I got the whole point of Be decent. We just don't seem to agree on what it requires.

If you have a problem with giving "soccer moms" the chance to
click away, no questions asked, then that indicates to me that you really
don't care about your audience,

Um, what? Did you read my comment? I said that I was all pro disclamer. Of course you can't blindside the reader. Of course I gice people a chance to click away, and lj-cut material that could offend people. What I am against is the idea that people should change their writing because everybody should be mainstream decent. Do you want to be mainstream decent?

But that is on your own time, of course. It is not, however, going to be
on my space. By the way, thanks for offending all the soccer moms reading
my journal.

you are Welcome, and buh bye!


But! She had to say the last word:
Subject: And thank you for not reading. Again.

And I say again, for the benefit of anyone else coming upon this
exchange: you are missing the point.

To quote heatherly:

I am not writing this with the intent to try to censor or judge what type
of erotic fiction individuals wish to write. I do support free speech,
which includes supporting other individuals' right to write things I find
personally objectionable. What I am hoping is for people to acknowledge
the seriousness of the issues they choose to raise in their fiction--to
remember that words have great power, and that comes with great
responsibility. If you choose to write erotic fiction featuring
teacher-student relationships, incest, underage relationships, or other
topics, that is your choice. What I am hoping is that when you write
those topics, you remember that in addition to being an erotic fantasy,
these topics also have a reality outside of your stories. And that the
reality is not as sexy as a steamy love scene between Jared Padalecki and
Jensen Ackles.


At this point, she freezed the thread. That, however, doesn't stop me from commenting to her original post:

What I am hoping is that when you write
those topics, you remember that in addition to being an erotic fantasy,
these topics also have a reality outside of your stories.

Soo, she presumes that the writers of crappy abuse fics don't understand the seriousnes of the topic? To what she bases this assumption?

On a certain level, I agree with her. Just like the mainstream fiction that objectifies women and so enables the women beeing objectified in a real world, theoretically it could be possible that writing about rape and abuse could change the world to more accepting towards abuse. But I still don't like her assumption that the abuse fic writers would have some problem with seeing the reality just because they write fantasy.


See, I was even partially agreeing with her! But she still blew her cascet:

Subject: Thanks for *reading*!

But that is on your own time, of course. It is not, however, going to
be on my space.

Not to mention, wait for it... completely missing her point. You're
showing no effort to understand what people are saying to you before
judging them, so we're done here.

Aand, then she probably deleted the entry or something, I don't care to check.





Nifty, isn't? And of course you can disagree with me on this, as long as you are willing to discuss things rather than go all "I will unfriend Yoo!" in the firs comment ;)

Comments

[franklymydear.livejournal.com]

I need to read through everything in more detail, but on first skim, I thought your approach was much more rational, even though there was high wank potential here. Yeesh on her initial reaction - you can keep people on your friends list that you happen to disagree with every so often, and you can have a reasonable debate with them about why you don't agree with each other, and move on from there! But way to go you for sticking to your guns and behaving like an adult.

[ahestele.livejournal.com]

I concur. I thought your approach was even -anded and that woman needs to get off that cross because somebody needs the wood.

[emmuzka.livejournal.com]

Well, it wasn't very polite to call the article bullshit, but as a whole, it irked me too much to be polite about it. If the writer was so concerned about the abuse fic writers not understandig the reality, why she brought up the issue of fic not being mainstream (with an undertone of Keep It Clean Because The Mainstream Might See and Get Upset)?

Oh well, if I was so irked by the commentators with their non-questioning "That Was So Deep!"-comments, and she was one of the commentators, that un-friending wasn't a big loss? ;)

[tvillingar.livejournal.com]

This reminds me of the chan discussion we had the other day. It was kinda my whole point that a writer doesn't have to acknowledge the reality: this doesn't mean s/he's not aware of it.

And good heavens, someone certainly overreacted to your opinion!

[emmuzka.livejournal.com]

Do Not Disagree with meee!! Think about the Children that were hurt during writing the fic!!!

[emmuzka.livejournal.com]

a writer doesn't have to acknowledge the reality: this doesn't mean s/he's not aware of it.

I have to stick this on my fridge door or something.

And Shusu, dear: As a person who writes fics full of people having kids and they having kids and even more kids; Maybe you shouldn't throw the first stone?

[mitzi007.livejournal.com]

Well.

I think it was a good essay and I agree with it.

She used the oldest argument that there are: You should not write certain fiction because I think it's icky.

She didn't. She said:

I am not writing this with the intent to try to censor or judge what type of erotic fiction individuals wish to write. I do support free speech, which includes supporting other individuals' right to write things I find personally objectionable.

That's far removed from "eww slash is icky, stop writing it!!!!111".

"Be responsible". what if part of us already are?

Then good for you. And a good thing she doesn't have a problem with you:

The ability to write about what happens when John Winchester dies and Sam & Dean turn to each other for comfort? Wow. That could be a very powerful, incredible story, touching on some very intense emotional dynamics and exploring societal taboos and the consequences of breaking them. And it could be erotic, for those who find those characters attractive.

The writers she does have a problem with are those who think Snape/Hermione is so romantic and they should get married and have ten children immediately. And I agree with her on that matter completely.

And even then she didn't say nobody should write fluffy Snape/Hermione, but the writers should acknowledge it for what it is and add appropriate warnings.

As for soccer moms. What she said is that writers should be aware that as fan fiction comes to the awareness of mainstream it may cause trouble for some writers and that writers should be aware of this problem. I agree with her. If I wrote chan or incest I would worry about a potential employer finding out. She didn't say we should start censoring ourselves, only that we should be careful.

As for you getting flamed. Shit happens, get over it.

[sua-lay.livejournal.com]

I'm so not even going to go into the subject of the whole thing, considering the fact that I don't need to be told a word about child abuse and incest and rape.

Yeah, there was some not so well-thought ideas in the post, and she is clearly looking at the issue from a very narrow point of view. But so are you. I'm not saying that you're bad at what you're doing (as in a bad media analyst), or that it's a bad thing, but no matter how well you analyze the subject through your field of expertise, you're still analyzing it through certain parameters.

On a larger scale, fantasizing men raping other men women can revenge, in a symbolical querilla style, the oppression of the surrounding heteropatriarchal matrix what we live and breathe.

While this is probably true in some contexts, it doesn't correlate with the idea of women writing about an adult raping a child or seducing a teenager and then both of them liking it in a way that shows that she sees nothing wrong with the scenario. Or writing an explicit rape fic with a minor and making it erotic as itself.

Of course the psychology behind your argument (which has undoubtedly been used to explain this sort of writing for ages by people much wiser than me) can also be seen as shaky. I do believe fantasies and therefore fanfic can be researched and analyzed, but since fantasizing is extremely personal and manifests in many different ways, I'm not really convinced you can draw any real conclusions on that kind of scale.

Otherwise I'd be really afraid of people like Stephen King or Anne Rice (of whom I actually am afraid, but for different reasons).

I'm of course viewing the issue through my whatever the heck they are parameters, where I hate labeling and don't really need a reason for liking fic beyond the fact that 'I like fic'.

But hey, discussion is always a good thing. I'd be interested in her reply to you, as it's probably not as confrontative and overreacted as some I might mention.

[emmuzka.livejournal.com]

I think that you missed my point. Getting flamed was fun! Of course I got over it! And now I will unfriend you because you disagreed! ..NOT.

I *know* that she said that she supports free speech and she isn't asking people to change their fics. (that was the part about disclamering the text to death) So what the hell was she asking, then? What was her thesis? What was her point?

As you said it, if she has a problem with fluffy Snape/Hermione, but still by all means go and write it, what she is after? Does she think that if she educates people with the harsh reality of abuse, people will acnowledge the reality as they write their fluffy abuse?

And a good thing she doesn't have a problem with you:

Why it's a good thing? What if she had a problem with me, what would happen? Should I acnowledge her *in any way* in fandom? Should I do what she says?

You want the disagree with me, please go back and copy&paste the sentences that you think were her points, so we can discuss about what she said and not about what she didnt say.

[arye-sarin.livejournal.com]

Heh! All that "I will unfriend you" as a first comment reminds me of little kinds on the sandbox who say "You are not invited to my birthday party" 10 times a day when they have an argument with an another child. And then they pout. For a second.

But kids forget and will be friends again within minutes. Adults are not that smart. ; )

I didn't read everything, so I can't comment on the subject itself.

[mitzi007.livejournal.com]

I think that you missed my point.

That much is obvious because I still fail to see why your knickers are on such a twist.

So what the hell was she asking, then? What was her thesis? What was her point?

That reality of incest and chan is this and people should be aware of it. And writing incest and chan can cause trouble in the real life and people should be aware of that too. That was pretty much it.

Why it's a good thing? What if she had a problem with me, what would happen?

Not you you, general you, as people who write non-fluffy Snape/Hermione or whatever. You seemed to think she condemned people like you and I disagreed.

And duh, nothing would happen. Of course not. She's just one person on the internet.

[emmuzka.livejournal.com]

it doesn't correlate with
the idea of women writing about an adult raping a child or seducing a
teenager and then both of them liking it in a way that shows that she
sees nothing wrong with the scenario. Or writing an explicit rape fic
with a minor and making it erotic as itself.


No, it doesn't. I admit that I was writing a little besides of the subject matter, but as I don't read, write or know about child abuse fics, I didn't include them in my explanation. Which, granted, could be taken as my answer for the whole child abuse/incest/rape-issue, which it isnt. Sorry about being vague on this.

I agree with the original article writer with on thing: It is possible that writing fics about Snape marrying his 10-year old student in a way that present this scenario as *romantic* could, in an overall sense, distort the general view or the subject in reality.

However, this is not inevetable. As a discussion, this would be pretty much the same discussion about porn hurting women by objectifying them and thus changing mens' views about women in the real world. Does all porn hurt women? All women? Does the porn change the mens' views in all cases? what about the men who say that they respect women in the real world and this is just a fantasy? Are they wrong? right? Does reading porn make want to do the acts?

But anyway. your comment, for example, was much more powerful, better constructed and better worded than the original, disclamered-to-death essay.

[emmuzka.livejournal.com]

I still fail to see why your knickers are on such a twist

The funny thing is, that *I didn't*. Read my original comment to the author. I didn't say that I disagreed with the author in any way eccept in the fact that she seemed to see all the crappy-abuse-fic-writers as being not aware of the harsh reality.

I didn't like the article because it *was poorly written*. It said with a thousand word what she could had said in thousand and you had to dig up her points up with a stick. And then she had three pages worth of "Ooh, that was so well said!" when it was actually very poorly said. But, everyone gests the fangirls that they deserve, I guess.

The whole meaning of the post wasn't to yell how wrong the article was or wasn't. The point was in structuring my entry in a way that the reader couldn't know my oppinion beforehand. So the reader goes and reads the article, probably half-hearted, and be all "yes, yes, we all agree", and *then* the reader would read my comments and wake up to question if she/he really gave any room for questioning the article in the first place.

The issue changed a whole lot more interesting when the woman originally suplying me with the link went apeshit and unfriended me. Because wanky behaviour is always interesting :)

[emmuzka.livejournal.com]

oops. correction:

* It said with a thousand word what she could had said in hundred.

[emmuzka.livejournal.com]

My first reaction to her unfriending comment? "I was looking for a reason to drop you anyway! and your fics are shitty!"

Really adult, don't you think? It's a gut reaction, the magical stuff of which the wanks are made of. But, I didn't say that to her. I'm intentionally provocative, but I try not to be childish.

[mitzi007.livejournal.com]

So the reader goes and reads the article, probably half-hearted, and be all "yes, yes, we all agree", and *then* the reader would read my comments and wake up to question if she/he really gave any room for questioning the article in the first place.

So this was some fancy meta-textual whatever experiment for you.

Well, it didn't work for me. I still think the essay was good, and well-written, and thoughtful and I still agree with it. Your response on the other hand was needlessly inflammatory, condescending and you talked beside the point when you dragged adult non-con into the mix.

[emmuzka.livejournal.com]

So, we agree that we disagree on this matter. I thin kthat the essay was poor, badly written and from a really narrow point of view, and I disagree with it.

I dont see myself as needlessly inflammatory, I was *provocative*. You might be nice. Well, I'm not nice. Condencending, yes, but that was intentional because of her being condescending towards the abuse bad fic writers. And a little beside the point, yes, sorry about that. But we should all remember that disagreeding with someone over some issue doesn't make the disagree-er a supporter of that issue.

[arye-sarin.livejournal.com]

I'm intentionally provocative, but I try not to be childish.

And that's why we love you. You say what other people just think. You're my hero. Was that icky or what? ; )

I still haven't read the whole entry, so nothing to say about the issue itself. Just listening to the eurovision songs and drinkin ice tee...shallow me.

[emmuzka.livejournal.com]

*Drinks pepsi in a hot, hot office*

Well, some people (like Mitzi) thought that I was unnesessarily imflammaroty. But that could be because Mitzi is nice and I'm not ;)

[arye-sarin.livejournal.com]

You're sometimes not nice, Mitzi is nice and I'm pathetic and *ss licking. ; )
But we really need all kinds. And usually I just shut up if I don't have anything nice to say, believe me. Usually. ; )
I don't give unnecessary praise even thouhg it sometimes seems so.

Pepsi! Me wants too.

[sua-lay.livejournal.com]

OMG you actually didn't disagree? Now I can't unfriend you! What a sad sad world this is!

/sarcasm

The one flaw I see in the 'let's not write anything weird like crackfic with penguins or morally ambiguous like chan or incest so that the general public will not freak' is that the so called general public will probably freak from the fact that we're writing porn about well loved characters and eep most of it is gay porn.

:D And who says only men like porn?

[mitzi007.livejournal.com]

Well, you are never boring, I give you that.

Okay, okay, I still like you :-) It's always refreshing that somebody is even more diplomacy impaired than me.

[dr-jekyl.livejournal.com]

I admit to being a touch miffed that you left out the rest of our dialogue, the bit where, you know, we agreed on some things even if we approached them from a different perspective.

[heartofslash.livejournal.com]

The original essay seemed to me to be about child abuse fic in particular, not all sexually violent fic, and it appears that you may have taken that personally since you like to read and write about people abusing others and being abused, of whatever age the characters might be.

I thought she was talking about the dangers and inappropriateness of people treating rape and abuse and pedophilia as light entertainment. A child welfare worker who is in fandom is entirely suited to writing about the subject. She never claimed to be better than anyone else, let alone "immortal" - she merely pointed out that the reality behind these fantasies is very ugly indeed.

Your defensiveness makes it look as if you do not want to acknowledge that you're not writing in a vacuum - or acknowledge that nonconsensual sexual activity in the real world is NOT hot at all, and that the hotness perceived by so many in noncon fic is not based in reality.

Note - In no way am I saying you don't have the right to read it or write it, so save the sanctimonious "you are bullshit because you're saying I can't write what I want to write" crap.

But guess what? - Rapefic is offensive to a lot of people. Learn to live with that because it's not going to go away no matter how much you holler. It's your fantasy and you can cry if you want to.

[sushis.livejournal.com]

"that the hotness perceived by so many in noncon fic is not based in reality."

I don't understand. Are you suggesting that people who like to read non-con fic don't know that rape is bad? I know plenty of people who like some dubious- and non-con fics, but none who think that rape is okay in RL. Rape fantasies are really quite common, and I don't believe that there's any evidence that people who fantasize in this way (generally, it should be pointed out, fantasizing as the "victim," not the "perpetrator") are any less aware of the seriousness of rape in reality than are people who find no hotness in the *fantasy*. Those who are not interested in the fantasy, and who are actively squicked by it, or who are specifically upset about it because of things that have happened to them, it's for those people that warnings are included.

[emmuzka.livejournal.com]

Sorry about that! When I did this entry, you hadn't responded yet. In all fairness, I'll have to continue the discussions. If I choose to copy and paste my discussions in here, then it's my responsibility to present them to the end.

So they will be coming!

[emmuzka.livejournal.com]

Your defensiveness makes it look as if you do not want to acknowledge that you're not writing in a vacuum - or acknowledge that nonconsensual sexual activity in the real world is NOT hot at all, and that the hotness perceived by so many in noncon fic is not based in reality.

I don't feel very defensive. I'm provocative, not defensive. Also, it would be pretty hard to feel defensive when one is not feeling guilty. It's easy being provocative and assume a bold and loud writing style, because I live in Finland where the culture is very different. Sorry if this is how it looked like to you. Because I do acknowledge that I'm not writing in a vacuum. I just refuse to change my writing because of it.

I also truly acknowledge that nonconsensual sexual activity in the real world in NOT hot at all. I have no delusions about this. It's not hot. The angst is not hot. The post traumatic stress in not hot. The fics are not based in reality and they don't portray reality in any way. I truly agree with you on this. It was not my intention to suggest that I thought otherwise. I disagreed with the original essay writer because I think that she implied that the writers were either qlueless or ignorant about the reality, not because I would have disagreed with her about the reality being
not hot.

Rapefic is offensive to a lot of people. Learn to live with that because it's not going to go away no matter how much you holler.

I'm not hollering. I'm not against people not liking rape fics, or not liking people who read them. They have all the right to come, even to my journal, and say so to me. I'm prepared to face the consequences. What I'm against, however, is that some people think that they would have the right to *stop* me from reading. They have the freedom to condemn me as much as they like, but they don't have the freedom to stop me.

[emmuzka.livejournal.com]

This is a thing that seems to be quite hard to catch by some people. Going too straightforward, it would be like this:

a person reads porn fic because she thinks porn is erotically hot. --> a person reads rape fic because she thinks rape fic is erotically hot. *NO* This isn' t how it goes.

It's more like this: a person reads angst fic because she gets satisfied by the emotional response.

for me, personally, I don't even that much prefer a certain source of the angst over another. I would prefer for example, war zone trauma over non-con as the sources of angst, but I I'll have to read whats out there.

[dr-jekyl.livejournal.com]

Groovy :)

[2ndbs.livejournal.com]

Disclaimer: I am not part of Fandom. I do not know Fandom's rules and non-rules. Instead I am a legal professional who deeply cares about freedom of speech and freedom of expression.

I am very concerned of ANY attempt to define what is right and what is what is wrong, when defining them leads (or even MAY lead) to ANY attempt of restricting freedom of speech or freedom of expression. Any restrictions of the aforesaid would lead to restrictions of many other things too. At that point, those people who defined the right or wrong, would have the right apply these definitions to people who do not believe in them. Conservative christian (or moslem or other) values would be applied to people who do not believe that way, and vice versa.

Fandom (and everyone else) should have the right to write what they want. It is the readers problem to avoid what they do not want to read.

I am ready to sacrifice their moral inconvenience for free world.

[emmuzka.livejournal.com]

moral inconvenience

I love that term! "Soldiers against moral inconvenience" sounds much more realistic than "Warriors for Innocense", the "Morality wing" and such.

[marag.livejournal.com]

::giggle:: I'm *so* amused that you told Heatherly she didn't have fandom creds, 'cause she's been in fandom for a really long time. She's one of the dinos of comic fandom, in fact. She was writing fanfic before I'd even picked up a comic book. Heh.

Trust me: she's entirely aware of how disclaimers and warnings work in fandom.

She's also easily the nicest person in fandom, as it happens, and I'm really quite sad that so many people are attacking her. But I'm still amused at comments about her lack of fandom creds. ::snicker::

[emmuzka.livejournal.com]

Oops! Well, I didn't know about her, anyway... But, that was how it looked. Like, a person who has seen disclamers the last ten years should maybe be familiar with them? Also, her writing style differed very much from what I'm used to see by the good, high profile authors. One who writes an open essay to *all* fandom should maybe think about listing her credentials, not from *ouside* fandom but *inside*.

I don't see people attacking her. Disagreeing, yes, but not attacking. She had to know that there would be also people disagreeing. Every comment has been somewhat decent and constructive. If there would have been actual attacking, this would have been over in Fandom Wank *so fast*. Actually, i think that it was the people agreeing with her that flamed the most. I got told that I was "fucking disgusting". I guess that it's easier to see people who reads non-con fics as disgusting than seeing the potential threat on forcing one's moral codes over others.

[marag.livejournal.com]

I don't think that every comment has been decent and constructive. Most, yes, but I think a number of folks have had a kneejerk reaction to what she wrote and didn't actually *read* it.

I don't think Hly's point was about disclaimers or warnings. I'd have to go re-read to be sure, but I kind of thought her point was that people need to think about what they write. She's seen many of the real-life implications of the things fandom writes about, and she wanted to talk about that.

She's the *last* person who would ever call you or another writer disgusting, and also the last person who would force her moral codes on anyone else. I wasn't using hyperbole when I said she was the nicest person in fandom. She's easily one of the nicest people I've ever met *anywhere*. Part of her moral code is to never force her moral code on anyone else!

[emmuzka.livejournal.com]

I think that her meaning was to suggest that people would simply *think*, take a breather and think twice how they are going to use the powerful words. However, when she said that she *didn't* wan't to stop anyone from writing whatever they wished, her point was kinda moot. Part of the abuse fic writers are qlueless and ignorant, and they keep being so, no matter how nicely you would ask them to think for a minute before they write that "hot" Snape/Hermione. The rest of the abuse writers, who aren't qlueless, were offended for her implying that they were.

Hmm.. My personal squick is threesome fics. I think that they are written very unrealistically, often used as cheap plot devices for the author to push together all her favorite characters, and they give a distorded image of the hard realism of polyamorism. If I would write an essay where I would ask people to think twice and inform reader about the unrealistic situation, how many comments would that gather?

[marag.livejournal.com]

::shrug:: I dunno, do you think that many people have been injured by consensual polyamorism? If so, go for it.

(Yes, I know, you were being sarcastic. I was too.)

[heartofslash.livejournal.com]

Whoa - did I say people who write rapefic isn't bad?

No, I said that the hotness people perceive in rapefic is not based in reality. It is based in fantasy.

Sure, lots of people see hot in rapefic and not in rape. But that doesn't change the fact that for a lot of other people it is painful that rapefic even exists, because their experience with real rape has left them no room for fun fantasies.

[heartofslash.livejournal.com]

Perhaps this is a language issue then, because statements like "mere mortals" and attacks on mothers etc. come across as defensive.

It is one thing to say that people have the right to criticise you and another to accept that criticism without attacking the critic and saying she knows absolutely nothing about fanfiction and accusing her of saying things she did not say. Escalation doesn't help the matter. There is a difference of opinion - that doesn't justify mud-slinging.

[sushis.livejournal.com]

"a person reads porn fic because she thinks porn is erotically hot. --> a person reads rape fic because she thinks rape fic is erotically hot. *NO* This isn' t how it goes. "

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that you don't find rape fic erotically hot, but, when you do like rape fic, it's because you like the depiction of emotional trauma in the writing? If that's what you're saying about *you*, that makes sense to me. For my part, however, I find *realistic* depictions of rape very unpleasant to read, as they stir up very unpleasant emotions. Certain porny, unrealistic depictions of rape, however, where it's obvious that the writer *knows* she's writing porn, not realistic literature, I enjoy as porn. I would never enjoy realistically traumatic depictions of rape in writing. That's just my personal preference, though, not something I see as better or worse than the preference you express (again, assuming I'm understanding you, and it's possible that I've misunderstood.)

[sushis.livejournal.com]

And yet, I believe that *some* people who have been raped *do* nonetheless have rape fantasies. It would be my guess that these are usually people who had rape fantasies prior to being assaulted, and that, at some point after being attacked, they nonetheless return to their previous sexual tendancies and fantasy preferences. However, I can also see how being raped could turn someone away from rape fantasies, or make someone who never had such fantasies to begin with particularly opposed to the idea of such fantasies. Nonetheless, I'm not sure what the point is at becoming angry about the contents of other people's minds, bookshelves, and hard-drives, as long as no one is trying to force anyone who finds these fantasies upsetting to read them.

[emmuzka.livejournal.com]

Yep, you got me right. I'm an emotion junkie, so that is what I'm after. If the act is written poorly or too descriptive, I might even skip it. But, if someone else wants to read some or all of them as porn, I have nothing against it. Because, as we all remember, *fiction*.

[emmuzka.livejournal.com]

It's probably a language thing. I'm Finnish. English isn't my mother language, it's not even my first foreign language. So it's entirely possible that I will get nuances wrong now and then. For example, I didn't think much about using the "mere mortals", I thought that it was a colorful way to say "the rest of us, of which you might not feel being the same level with". And the soccer mom is a figure of speech that someone else (Dr_jekyl?) introduced to the discussion. I see the soccer mom as an allegory for all mainstream people. It isn't a dig against mothers and I think that's pretty funny that people took is as a face value. It's like in Finland, people call the "concerned" people who vorry about teletubbies and Sponge Bob making chldren gay, as "flower hat ladies". Still, we have nothing against ladies with flower hats.

when I first wrote this entry, the original essay haven't catched so much readers then, and I just made the entry as I always write entries, quickly and somewhat provocatively. If I would have known that my writings would be part of a bigger discussion, I would have probably think my word choices and implications twice. So, instead of "bullshit", I would have written "bull", or even "I disagree." but at the time I didn't know this.